Non Compete Clause

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Non Compete Clause

Postby Seattlesunshine on Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:27 pm

Does anyone have a good reason as to why I would want to sign one? I am 99.9% convinced that the 2 year/10 mile radius contract that my employer wants me to sign is not in my best interest. I just started this spa job (see my spa job vent post) and after two weeks I am hit up with this. I haven't even finished school yet. Should I try and renogoiate (sp)and if so to what? I don't even know what is standard. I am pretty sure I know how this is gonna end for me but I would like to here ideas, anyone?
Thanks
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Postby palpable on Wed Dec 21, 2005 6:32 pm

NO! RUN!

Seriously, I know I have seen comments and threads on here about non-compete clauses. They are illegal in many states. Besides, what happens if you don't like working at this spa :wink:
You are not even doing MT work there (if I recall correctly from your other thread) and they are asking you to sign this?!
Search the Business Ethics section for some info on this. And I am sure some other folks can give you some good advice.
Move on as quickly as you can to people who get you and what you do. -Robert Chute
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Postby Shannon on Wed Dec 21, 2005 9:06 pm

A 10 mile radius??? That is a by far a bit much. I worked at one place that after I left I couldn't work within 2 miles of them for one year.
10 miles.....I would run as well.
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Postby SalemRose on Thu Dec 22, 2005 4:51 am

I agree with everyone else, NO NO NO

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Postby mush on Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:19 am

uh, no thanks. if it was a condition of employment, it should have been done before you actually started any work.
palpable makes a good point. you're a receptionist/spa coordinator. so if you sign the document, does it mean you cannot be a receptionist within 10 miles?
and you could be the sunshine falling over the mountains.. john butler
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Postby jillith on Thu Dec 22, 2005 6:43 am

Shannon wrote:A 10 mile radius??? That is a by far a bit much. I worked at one place that after I left I couldn't work within 2 miles of them for one year.
10 miles.....I would run as well.



my school has a separate day spa that students can work at once they get their temporary license. their contract has a 50 min radius non-compete clause! i think i heard it's in effect for 3-5 yrs! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: i'm so glad i don't work for them!
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Postby Seattlesunshine on Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:06 am

mush wrote:uh, you're a receptionist/spa coordinator. so if you sign the document, does it mean you cannot be a receptionist within 10 miles?


Yep, no reception work or anything else in a spa or salon or even in a private home. So it looks like 100% of you agree. I thought so, but being new to the industry I wanted to make extra sure I wasn't missing something. I am off to work and I will be sure to let you know how it all turns out at the end of the day.
Thanks to all of you.
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Postby maestra on Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:30 am

I agree with the others here, I wouldn't sign it either. I can't imagine them even requesting that you (as a receptionist) are being asked to sign one!
I've been asked to sign once as a condition of employment at a salon I was interested in working from... the minute the owner said that... I was no longer interested! I live in a small city of less than 10,000 people. If I was to sign something like that I'd probably have to move to a different city, because there really isn't much else within driving distance if you can't work within 10 miles of your former place of employment!
Yes, I've heard "horror stories" from owners about how a MT came to work for them and then took all the clients/records when she left.
*shrug* I don't think they understand the nature of the business... our work is very intimate, and our clients can become very attached to us. I don't think it's shocking at all that they want to follow us when we move to a new location! Contracts should be made with that provision if it's an issue, however, as a receptionist, IMHO, that does not apply!
My niece is a nail tech, she signed a non-compete when she went to work for this one salon and after a few months she just couldn't take the catty nature of their employees so decided to leave the place. She moved across town and I believe 2-3 of her clients from the old place followed her to the new one. The owner of the salon threatened to take them to court over the couple clients who had badgered her new location out of her. It didn't amount to anything though. *shrug* I still wouldn't do it...
I agree with palpable, Run!
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Postby mush on Thu Dec 22, 2005 7:49 am

jillith wrote:my school has a separate day spa that students can work at once they get their temporary license. their contract has a 50 min radius non-compete clause! i think i heard it's in effect for 3-5 yrs! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: i'm so glad i don't work for them!


truly unbelievable :shock:
nice way to encourage your new graduates.
and you could be the sunshine falling over the mountains.. john butler
red rocks 9/2005
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Postby jillith on Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:07 am

i meant 50 miles not 50 mins. :p you would have to drive to another city to massage. i've heard these clauses don't hold up in court. there is no way i would sign a contract with one in there.
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Postby seekingequanimity on Thu Dec 22, 2005 8:31 am

Hi guys, I have read numerous articles about non-compete clauses, and I'm very sorry I don't have any links or anything to them.
The number one thing I do remember about them is that they have to be REASONABLE to be legal, and therefore, enforceable.
The other thing is that they are basically worthless unless the former employer is going to go the lengths of suing you, and then the original contract has to be found to be legal(reasonable). And, the party suing has to show how their business has been damaged by you. VERY difficult in our business.
A HUGE majority smaller businesses just make up their own contracts and rely on your ignorance to follow the word of the contract, in the hopes you won't "compete" with them.
My advice, for what it is worth, and that is not much (I'm an LMT, not an employment attorney): If it is a place you really, really, want to work, I wouldn't even mention the non compete clause and just sign it, they will most likely never enforce it, and it is probably unenforceable anyway. Plus, I don't see how a non-compete clause can apply to a receptionist position.
Noel
(I will try and look for some articles about this)
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Postby KneadedMassage on Fri Dec 23, 2005 9:04 pm

If it is a place you really, really, want to work, I wouldn't even mention the non compete clause and just sign it, they will most likely never enforce it, and it is probably unenforceable anyway.



I'm not sure why someone would really, really want to work in a place that was restrictive and untrusting.

I would also question the ethics of someone who would knowingly sign something that they never intended to abide by. I think it is far better and more ethical and speaks to who you are if you are honest with the potential employer and share the reasons why you'd really like to work there, but that the non-compete clause has you concerned because it will severely limit your ability to work close to your home if you should decide to depart ways for some reason. If you state that you are an ethical person and therefore cannot sign something that you may not be able to abide by, but that you absolutely in no way intend to steal clients, and that should you leave their employment, you will not be taking any client lists or personal information with you.....one would hope the employer would see that you are honest and might be an asset to their business. If they can't, then perhaps this is not the place for you.

Just my 2 cents.
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Postby moogie on Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:44 pm

We have a non-compete contract at our clinic which held up in court the one and only time we were forced to sue someone. Our non-compete is very reasonable. It does not in any way restrict where you can work. You can work right across the street from us if you so choose. What is does restrict is our clients. You are not allowed to solicit business in any way from our existing clientelle once you leave our employment for the period of one year. This includes telling them where you plan to move on to before you leave.

The reason for this is simple. We invest money, time and effort to bring in the clients. Our therapists are employees. We provide everything for them, including advertising. We have over the years had therapists who come to work for us solely for the purpose of building a clientelle and then leaving with them.

All of our prospective employees are told about the non-compete up front during the interview process and are told that signing it is required to work at our clinic.

Non-competes protect the business but they shouldn't be too restrictive. The one mentioned in this thread is definitely too restrictive and probably wouldn't hold up in court.


Angie
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Postby Seattlesunshine on Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:06 am

moogie303 wrote:We have a non-compete contract at our clinic which held up in court the one and only time we were forced to sue someone. Our non-compete is very reasonable. It does not in any way restrict where you can work. You can work right across the street from us if you so choose. What is does restrict is our clients.


This seems really fair to me and I would not have a problem with something like that. However since I am using some of my neighbors as practice clients (in their homes) and the spa is also in my neighborhood they are considered off limits to me outside the spa. From graduates I have spoke to it seems to be very rare to actually turn any of your practice clients into paying ones, but I was hoping I could keep one or two. As for just ignoring it and signing I am afraid I just don't have it in me. I would feel weird signing onto something I know I didn't believe in. I think I may give these people the benifit of the doubt that they don't know how much they are asking for and see if its renogotiable. I'll let you know how it goes.
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Postby jillith on Tue Dec 27, 2005 6:30 am

From graduates I have spoke to it seems to be very rare to actually turn any of your practice clients into paying ones, but I was hoping I could keep one or two.


all of my practice clients (friends) are my paying clients now. i didn't get any from my internship at the school's clinic.
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Which is why Spa pay should be less than 50%

Postby RelaxandRejuvenate on Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:08 am

maestra wrote:I don't think they understand the nature of the business... our work is very intimate, and our clients can become very attached to us. I don't think it's shocking at all that they want to follow us when we move to a new location!


If you believe this is true, then you should not expect to earn more than 40% of a treatment.

Advertising and promotion expenses run about 15% - 20% of revenue. That is money spent bringing in clients, who you think should be allowed to follow you when you leave. I agree with moogie on this. The employer is spending the money to bring the clients.

If you are paid 50% of a service, yet the A&P dollars will only benefit you in the long run, then you are accounting for 60%-65% (allowing for those who don't follow) of total costs. No spa can survive those economics!
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Postby Texas-gal on Fri Dec 30, 2005 8:04 am

Just ran across a few old threads that have some talk about non-competes... adding them as a cross reference:

May have a job opportunity.
http://www.bodyworkonline.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1170

wording on a Non Compete
http://www.bodyworkonline.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1332

Confused! What would you do?
http://www.bodyworkonline.com/forum/vie ... php?t=1349
Last edited by Texas-gal on Tue Jan 03, 2006 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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NO!!!

Postby POLLY on Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:29 pm

Never in a million. What are they offering you besides loss of control ? Getting a license is so you can have control, to say where and when you choose to massage when to help and where.
What if they don't like you? What if you dont like them? What if you gett a better offer or have a chance to make a real difference next door?
You would be biting the hand that feeds you YOUR Own.
Did they spend time, money hard work to get your license- No look out for yourself.
Location is Bradenton/Sarasota Fl
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Postby Seattlesunshine on Tue Jan 17, 2006 7:41 pm

Well heres the latest update. Putting the non compete aside I have been at this spa 6 weeks. Being on the inside and seeing how it is run I know for sure I do not want to work there as an mt when I graduate. I won't even get into all the crap that goes on there, but its toxic. (to your soul anyway). Alot of turmoil and distraction going on there. My one on one with managment was coming up next week when I would have to sign or go. I chose not to sign and to give notice today. I told them it just wasn't a good match for me. So true. I feel lighter tonight then in a long time. I am glad I had the chance to research from within while still in school. I may be jobless now but at least I am following my heart on this one. Now I can concentrate on school again.
Thanks everyone.
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Postby maestra on Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:19 pm

:smt056

Way to go SeattleSunshine! I'm glad you got to taste the spa life while you were still in school... and see that it's not for you. Glad you didn't sign the non-compete clause! Wishing you the best as you head towards graduation!
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Postby mush on Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:07 am

ditto
and you could be the sunshine falling over the mountains.. john butler
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Postby Grapeseed on Wed Jan 18, 2006 6:54 am

I truly believe that the non compete clause is hurting a business more than they know. If they do have a enforceable legal document and they adhere to it, that is their priority. I wouldn't work in a business with these restrictions.

This is how I look at situations like this. If I'm running a business and I have a client that needs a specific modality and I can't offer that service, I'm going to refer the client to someone who can. I would in return appreciate the same respect from other LMTs. If a company has to grasp on to clients with this piece of paper then their business isn't going to thrive. Networking with all the LMTs in the community is by far better than putting the "my client" stamp on a person.

It makes me think of a 3 year old that says, "Mine"... maybe there is validity in that? :shock:
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Postby bushido_smt on Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:10 pm

moogie303 wrote:We have a non-compete contract at our clinic which held up in court the one and only time we were forced to sue someone. Our non-compete is very reasonable. It does not in any way restrict where you can work. You can work right across the street from us if you so choose. What is does restrict is our clients. You are not allowed to solicit business in any way from our existing clientelle once you leave our employment for the period of one year. This includes telling them where you plan to move on to before you leave.

The reason for this is simple. We invest money, time and effort to bring in the clients. Our therapists are employees. We provide everything for them, including advertising. We have over the years had therapists who come to work for us solely for the purpose of building a clientelle and then leaving with them.

Angie


Sorry, but in my opinion, your clause doesn't hold any water either... Your massage clients aren't your clients because of your advertising. They're your clients because of the quality of care provided by the therapists.

If your clause stated they couldn't solicit the clients, that's fine. I'd take it under consideration when being asked to sign your clause. However, they should be able to tell their clients that they are leaving and if the clients wishes to follow their therapist, that is up to the client... not the clause!!!
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Postby jasond on Tue Nov 07, 2006 3:15 pm

Excellent discussion. Basically the reasonableness of a non compete clause comes down to balancing you taking clients from a place that your employed, and the ability of you supporting yourself.

Another words regardless what you sign a company doesn't own you, and can't keep you from making a living for yourself. I mean the days of slavery are over. (I hope).

I would say protecting clients is one thing, keeping your from earning a living in your town is another. I'm not an attorney but lets use common sense here. If all of the non compete clauses that spas and what not where legal we would basically be creating indentured servitude for life. Either you work for me or you don't work in this town again for the next two to ten years or forever :shock:

That being said I'd be hard pressed to work for an organization that wanted me to sign an egregious non compete clause. Protecting clients is one thing, stoping you from earning a living is another.

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