Ruptured Discs question..

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Ruptured Discs question..

Postby greatkat2 on Tue Nov 23, 2004 12:03 pm

Can massage help someone with two ruptured discs? If so, for how long and how often should they get massaged??<br>Reason for the question is because someone who is pregnant thinks that pain killers are her only solution. Anyone have a different approach?
What if the hokie pokie IS what its all about?
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Re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby melb on Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:50 pm

which discs, how pregnant and where is the pain?<br><br>Is this a new problem or existing one which has been aggravated by pregnancy? If it is a new problem how did they diagnose ruptured discs with the pregnancy?  MRI, CT, x-ray would all be no-nos...<br><br>Basically the pain from a ruptured disc is the nerve in the spine being piched.  Massage won't help with the nerve being piched at the spine.  What it will help with is the area tensing up because of the pain form the nerve being pinched.  That extra tension contributes to the pain, but if the discs are actually ruptured, not bulging, easing the tension in the painful area might not do much.  Also with the positioning you need to consider for pregnancy you might have a problem - not flat on back, not on stomach.  A lot of bolstering could be the answer, and that could supply some relief without any massage.<br><br>Easiest recommendation for someone with hips larger than their waist is if they are side lying - put a firm pillow between the waist and underarm - this helps straighten out the back, and gives the shoulder a break from being squashed.  You need a bigger pillow under the head if you have the pillow under the ribs. The pillow is positioned in the same direction as if it was under your head.  <br><br>She shouldn't be lying flat on her back, you need one hip wedged up a bit, usually the right hip should be elevated.  With back problems that twisting of the hip can be a problem, make sure there is a wedge under the shoulder too, so the whole body it slightly rotated.  You need at least 20deg to stop the blood supply issues.
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Re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby jenny_nebeker on Tue Nov 23, 2004 7:31 pm

The only problem with massaging the spine with a ruptured disc, is that the muscles have tensed there to protect those discs. If you massage and relax those muscles, then that person is going to be in much more pain when you are done and they stand up. So I wouldn't if I were you. <br>They need to go see a surgeon, because they are only going to get worse. He might be abel to give her something that won't harm her baby. But she needs to stay off those pain meds as  much as possible. It is harder when they are pregnant, too. I feel for her, because pregnancy is hard enough on the back without having ruptured discs. I wish her the best.
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Re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby palpateit on Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:27 pm

Splinting muscles need to be addressed and spasmed reduced.  Massage is indicated, not contraindicated for disc pathologies (I assume we are talking lumbar disc problems. cervical need a slower approach as the neck muscles may reflexively spasm if relaxed too quickly or overworked.)<br><br>The splinting lumbar and gluteal muscles will start to develop trigger points, which can cause pain long after the disc (if it is a disc problem) has run it's course. So work them. Spasmed muscles are not protecting the discs, they cannot. Discs are fused to the vertebrae, and are incapable of movement or slippage. When sitting the lowest lumbar discs experience compression forces of up to 1,000 pounds.<br> Muscles are important in stabilization, but in a contract - relax fashion as the spine changes position. Splinting muscles cannot offer such stabilization. All PT regimines use exercises to get more mobility not less in the affected joints.  <br><br>Note that not all disc pain arises from the pinched nerves. Some individuals have pain sensors in their outer disc regions. Other sources of pain include pressure on the dura mater, and damage or irritation to the posterior longitudinal ligament.  The doctor may have an incorrect diagnosis, but its sometimes not known exactly what the disc is doing until you open a person up. Herniated, ruptured, protruding, bulging.... no agreement on meaning of terms by medical field. <br><br>That said its always a good idea to get an expert evaluation... but remember the saying " if you have a hammer everything looks like a nail". If you are a surgeon then .......<br><br><br>
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Re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby Katykangaroo8 on Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:34 pm

I'd be interested in hearing about the particulars of the case.  How and when the injury occurred, what she's done in the past for relief, how pregnancy has changed what she's feeling, what is the exact location of the injured discs, etc.<br><br>The pregnant clients I've had that also have back injuries usually start complaining of increased pain during their 7th or 8th month and come once or twice a week based on how they're feeling.<br><br>First off, make sure her OB/GYN and spine doctor agree that massage is ok.  If it's lumbar, I like to keep the massages short, but see the client more often.  Side-lying, 45 minute sessions (15 on each side, 15 on her back slightly tilted to the left with pillows) are great.  That way she's not too stiff when she gets off the table.  Thoracic and neck pain can usually do a 60 min. session with not too much stiffness afterward.  Encourage her to move and stretch more as a general rule - flexing the vertebral joints helps keep the discs healthy.  Maybe with her doctor's OK she can do some pre-natal yoga.<br><br>Good luck convincing this person to live healthier for herself and her baby.  The acupuncture idea that BJB-LMP mentioned is a good one too. <br><br>Katykangaroo
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Re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby jdcan on Fri Dec 03, 2004 6:48 pm

Palpateit, would you explain this, please:<br>""Spasmed muscles are not protecting the discs, they cannot. Discs are fused to the vertebrae, and are incapable of movement or slippage. "
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re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby palpateit on Fri Dec 03, 2004 8:58 pm

Not sure what you want to know. <br><br>Most of the Disc is composed of outer rings of fibrocartilage, and an inner jelly like center. The fibrocartilage is excedingly strong- when cadavers get slammed into cement walls the vertebrae break while the disc stays intact.<br><br>The disc is fused to the vertebrae by collagen fibers, the strongest stuff in the body. Discs never slip out, never.<br><br>One can strip a spine bare, with no muscles and NO LIGAMENTS, and play around with it rather fiercly.. and discs stay fused.. no movement, no slippage.<br><br>Protecting? Depends how one defines it.<br>Muscles act like guide wires, moving and positioning the vertebrae, helping stabilize the spine, taking the load off the ligaments. The ligaments prevent movement - at the end range of motions.<br>SO - vertebral muscles help to prevent damage to ligaments of the spine, as they would with the knee or shoulder joint.<br><br>This help??<br>
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Re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby jdcan on Fri Dec 03, 2004 9:32 pm

Yes, I think. Thank you. From my understanding, you are saying a "slipped disc" is just the vertabrae moving, which is influenced by the muscles and ligaments. So, it's the terminology that's in question. Right?
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INTERVERTEBRAL DISCS:Re: Ruptured Discs question..

Postby palpateit on Sat Dec 04, 2004 1:09 pm

No, the vertebrae moving out of place is what chiropractors call a subluxation, (unless it's a break in the articular processess, then it is called spondylolythesis) but that is a different story.<br><br>Vertebrae move out of place only slightly - a small bit of rotation, or a slight flexed or extended position.<br><br>Discs are not vertebra. <br>As described, the discs are cushions sandwhiched between the vertebrae.<br>There is NO SUCH THING AS A SLIPPED DISC. The discs do not slip. THey do not MOVE. <br>Discs stay firmly fused the vertebrae above and vertebra below. That is it, end of story.<br><br>Many terms are used to describe a bulging or ruptured disc.<br>Such as herniated, bulging, ruptured, prolapsed, degenerating... and of course, slipped - a Bad term, giving a false impression.<br><br>It has been stated that tense (splinting) muscles are there to protect the discs. <br>I am saying that is a completely false statement. <br><br>My caution is that relaxing the muscles TOO much in one session, or working too long, (primarily the necK) may cause a reflexive spasm of those same muscles. <br><br><br><br>
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