Infant CST?

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EgoMagickian
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Infant CST?

Post by EgoMagickian » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:09 pm

Hi folks,

Random question from looking at another thread... in school I heard a story about someone doing cranialsacral therapy on their friend's baby soon after she had given birth and how great this was.

Never heard of it since... would it be generally good for babies to receive cranial work? What level of training would that take?

Not something I'll probably get into, but wondering for the sake of idealism what the answer is :-)

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Post by jyoti » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:35 pm

Hiya :)

Hopefully this will be helpful, even though my own approach and experience are from a slightly different angle...

In several of our lunchtime seminars, we've had chiropractic pediatricians come in and give guest lectures on infant adjusting (which is nothing like adjusting adults! :) ) It is very slow, sustained, and gentle. Actually, it works more the meninges and fascia than it does vertebrae (though the vertebrae do happen to realign themselves after being compressed so heavily through the birth canal, which then restores proper nerve function). It also (emotionally and physically) releases any energy-based birth trauma (the baby usually starts crying even though there is no discomfort involved). From what I know about CST (which I have always had tremendous fascination and respect for!) it is a lot like that, and if it's what I think it is and if it's as simliar to what we're learning as I think it is, it would be really beneficial and healthy for an infant! :)

Personally, I think that if you have any Infant/Pediatric massage training and CST training, you could probably simply combine your knowledge spheres from both classes to make an incredible transformation in a little one's life ;)

Hope that helps? :)
Hugs!
~Jyoti

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Post by mtnlionz » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:47 pm

I have a friend down here in L.A. who specializes in infant CST, and teaches it. She has been on here a couple of times...I'll see if I can get her to chime in.

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Post by maestra » Thu Apr 03, 2008 9:46 pm

My great niece was born breech 6 years ago and diagnosed with hip dysplasia, and infant CST was recommended by one of my MT instructors at the time but her parents didn't have the funds to search out a pediatric CranioSacral Practitioner... or the money to provide ongoing care.

I did some infant massage on her and as jyoti mentioned they took her to a pediatric chiropractor 1 hr away for an adjustment. He adjusted her and she laughed for the very first time. :lol:

So I can't really say if it would have helped, I think it would have been nice to try it though!
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Re: Infant CST?

Post by cstbrian » Fri Apr 04, 2008 4:22 am

EgoMagickian wrote:Hi folks,

Random question from looking at another thread... in school I heard a story about someone doing cranialsacral therapy on their friend's baby soon after she had given birth and how great this was.

Never heard of it since... would it be generally good for babies to receive cranial work? What level of training would that take?

Not something I'll probably get into, but wondering for the sake of idealism what the answer is :-)

Guess who?!?! It's me .... Cranio-Man .... lol ;)

CST for newborns is amazing work. Most of us who have had advanced training and work with the craniosacral system on a daily basis, wish that we could get our hands on every newborn coming into this world.

Even the easiest, least complicated gestation, labor and delivery process can be traumatic not only for mom but for baby. (I am not saying this is true for every newborn - some do just fine)

The birth process is kind of like the newborns first craniosacral system 'adjustment' as his/her cranium is collapsed down the birth canal and re-expanded coming out into the world. Also, there is a dural twist that happens along the way. If the newborn's self healing systems are all 100% ok, there's an excellent chance that all will re-expand in a healthy state.

However, because the delivery process can be long and traumatic, the baby may be stuck in a position for hours. Cranial bones may overlap too much for too long and get stuck. How many of you have seen a newborn that looks like the frontal bone slightly overlaps the parietals giving a little 'ridge' across the forehead? Only to find out labor was long and mom pushed hard.

Another concern is when the baby's head pops out and the person delivering, in an attempt to help the mom, holds on to the baby's skull to gently pull/guide the baby out. Many times this is done in a way that puts the baby's cervical spine into extreme extension. We see a lot of O/A compression post delivery. To start off life with this compression effects the baby's ability to truly get into parasympathetic.

Imagine starting off life with any of these restrictions in your nervous system. From the get go your body is trying to adapt and balance itself with these issues present. The entire rest of this person's life may be dealing with anxiety issues because of a compressed O/A from birth. Or perhaps some sort of learning concern because of cranial membrane tension or stuck suture ... or add/adhd ... or unexplained migraines/headaches ... the list could go on and on ...

My point being, if we can address any restrictions that may be present in the first few days of life, what is the possibility of this person's body to do its job and maintain homeostasis. How many syndromes/symptoms/conditions might we help children avoid if his/her craniosacral system is as healthy as can be from the beginning.

I have worked on several 1or 2 day old newborns. It is beautiful work and often brings a tear to my eye to think that I may have helped this child to lead the healthiest life possible. It is a great honor.

I have also worked with older newborns to help relieve colic, poor latch, ear infections, nose discharge, and other symptoms.

I hope this helps some with seeing the possibility that is present.


Brian
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Post by sjidoulamt » Fri Apr 04, 2008 5:33 am

I just want to clarify... is there indeed advanced CS training for work with infants? Or can anyone who has experience with CS work on infants?

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Training!

Post by originforces » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:56 am

Hello,
Thanks for bringing me into the conversation Chris, I love the topic of course!
My practice for the past 5 years has been focused on pre and post natal care, with the use of Biodynamic CST. I have had hundreds of hours of training to work both with Pregnant mothers and with their babies.

So, yes, you do need to be trained to work with infants. Their anatomy is completely different than an adults, it is not that an adults anatomy is just "bigger". The structures of bones to nervous system function differently. To work effectively with infants you must really study the bonding process between a mother and child, embryology, and neuroanatomy.

With a trained therapist the results are effective, and can help infants avoid a lot of antibiotics, sleepless nights, digestive issues and so on. It also is incredibly helpful to more "serious" issues, like fontanel closures, respiratory distress, mis-shape heads, and so on.

Blessings everyone!
Elizabeth
Origin Forces is a teaching center and private practice that uses Biodynamic Craniosacral Therapy and Indigenous perspective to help families thrive.

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Post by AngEngland » Fri Apr 04, 2008 6:01 pm

My chiropractor did some CST work on both my babies - my daughter in particular had an odd spot on her head where she had engaged posterior in my pelvis (thankfully the midwife is skilled and help DIS-engage her so she could turn and be born easily - three hours total labor time) which had caused the frontal bone of the skull to actually slightly overlap the bones behind it.

While the adjustment on my son corrected misalignment in his upper cervicals and immediately improved his latch, the change in my daughter happened over the next two months as her skull slowly and gently was reshaped to normal look and feel. It was beautiful to see and the most amazing gentle work.

Angela <><

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Post by EgoMagickian » Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:56 pm

This is AWESOME.

How can we make CST a regular part of hospital deliveries?

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Post by sjidoulamt » Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:07 am

EgoMagickian wrote:How can we make CST a regular part of hospital deliveries?
(wry laugh) I so wish.
There have been widespread efforts to make midwifery services, doula services and massage services regular parts of hospital deliveries, with limited success, depending on the demand. Birth is one of the biggest money generators for a hospital, so they are generally concerned with keeping birth speedy and predictable; one of the reasons you have a 30% Cesarean rate in the United States. I feel the time spent marketing complementary therapies is better spent focusing on educating the parent-to-be.

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Post by AngEngland » Sat Apr 05, 2008 9:10 am

sjidoulamt wrote:
EgoMagickian wrote:How can we make CST a regular part of hospital deliveries?
(wry laugh) I so wish.
There have been widespread efforts to make midwifery services, doula services and massage services regular parts of hospital deliveries, with limited success, depending on the demand. Birth is one of the biggest money generators for a hospital, so they are generally concerned with keeping birth speedy and predictable; one of the reasons you have a 30% Cesarean rate in the United States. I feel the time spent marketing complementary therapies is better spent focusing on educating the parent-to-be.
30% PRIMARY C-esction rate - an important distinction. :-)

And no way. Very few doctors will take four times the amount of time and energy for one tenth the payment - it simply wouldn't be profitable under the current model of health care.

Which is one reason why I choose to birth my babies at home. I refuse to feed the demon. :-)

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Post by EgoMagickian » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:12 pm

Ang, I don't really understand anything in your post except the last part. Could you elaborate? What's the important distinction? And what are you referring to with the doctors time/pay? When you say "No way" do you mean no way to integrate CST into hospitals? Or something else?

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Post by mamajen » Sat Apr 05, 2008 2:46 pm

(Some) doctors will prefer to medicate and section women because it's convenient. It takes a lot less time to perform a c-section than it does to wait out a labor and delivery. Primary I read to mean first choice, rather than going through a labor and delivery, correct me if I'm wrong.

I have been struggling for 5 years to get prenatal and infant massage into our local hospital. Even though one of my regulars who saw me through both her pregnancies and who I taught infant massage to is a L&D nurse and believes whole-heartedly in massage, the hospital resists. I've done presentations for the L&D dept and submitted proposals (at their request) for post-natal and infant massage to no avail.

I was lucky in that my family doc was a D.O. and was totally supportive of my desire for a natural, unmedicated childbirth. There aren't too many of those around. Unfortunately she's no longer practicing so I would absolutely have my next child at home, though with the way my 6yo is behaving lately I don't think there will be a next child, lol!

Edited to add that this topic (of childbirth in the US) is a hot topic for me as I think there's way too much intervention in a natural process and it's just universally accepted. My sister has had two kids in the past 2.5 years and both times had horrible deliveries BECAUSE of the intervention of the hospital staff that was, in my opinion, totally unnecessary. Both times I was present and used massage to help her through labor and was totally pushed aside and dismissed by the hospital staff.

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Post by AngEngland » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:30 pm

EgoMagickian wrote:Ang, I don't really understand anything in your post except the last part. Could you elaborate? What's the important distinction? And what are you referring to with the doctors time/pay? When you say "No way" do you mean no way to integrate CST into hospitals? Or something else?
I meant no way it will ever happen under the current situation we have.

Primary C-section means first time C-sections. WHen many hospitals came under heavy criticism for having C-section rates that were far too high - 200 times the generous "recommended" level they stopped tracking TOTAL C-sections and started counting only PRIMARY or FIRST TIME C-sections.

So if a mother has three babies by C-section only her first one would "count against" the hospital's stated C-section rate. Not her last two. If a hospital has 30% primary C-section rate and doesn't allow women to try for a vaginal birth after Ceserean (another insurance-led medical decision that does not follow the EVIDENCE BASED RESEARCH) than every baby born to any of those 30 out of 100 women in the future will likely (in some areas over 90%) ALSO be born via C-section.

But not counted in the hospitals given C-section rate.

Even though a mother who delivers via C-section is three times more likely to die than a mother delivering vaginally and a baby born via C-section is DRASTICALLY more likely to end up needing time in the NICU and twice as likely to die as a vaginally birthed counter part. Those numbers come from studies that compare only low risk, healthy mothers with healthy babies.....takes out and accounts for any sick or unhealthy mothers. So yeah.....

:-) In other words - Don't get me started. *laughing* I could seriously go on for quite awhile. It really boils down to money, malpractice and CYA. Like all things that make the world go 'round.

Incidentally - The United States loses more newborns every year than 28 other countries. Don't let the pretty wall-paper fool you - the American model of birth SUCKS. Plan and simple.

Angela <-- got certified as a childbirth educator and learned WAY too much.

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Post by AngEngland » Sat Apr 05, 2008 8:33 pm

mamajen wrote:
I have been struggling for 5 years to get prenatal and infant massage into our local hospital. Even though one of my regulars who saw me through both her pregnancies and who I taught infant massage to is a L&D nurse and believes whole-heartedly in massage, the hospital resists. I've done presentations for the L&D dept and submitted proposals (at their request) for post-natal and infant massage to no avail.
You might consider partnering with some local doulas. If they are not trained in infant massage themselves you might be able to market to their clients that way and generate some more interest. It will have more weight coming from the PATIENTS - when the money holders make requests it tends to be heard a little better. :-) Doulas will be sympathetic and may also know the "friendlier" hospital or more willing doctors in your area.

Angela <><

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Post by cstbrian » Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:18 am

I have a couple points to discuss.

First, yes extra training is recommended. In Upledger CST training, we spend a morning in CSTII talking about working with newborns and children. At this stage we do not recommend that therapists start working with newborns and children, but we give it as a guide in case they may be the only person in the area practicing this type of work and a newborn shows up in his/he office.

We recommend that a therapist not work on children or newborns until he/she can comfortably and confidently feel and assess the craniosacral rhythm (CSR) anywhere at any time on the body within a second or two. We suggest that therapists start working with adults and then begin working down in age: From adults to teenagers to pre-teens, to toddlers, to infants, to newborns. It gets more challenging as the 'patient' gets younger as the rhythm gets faster and has less amplitude; plus the therapist is working with a moving target. Also, the therapist must be confident in know what tissue release feels like, and how to work with as little as 1 gram of pressure.

Upledger does have a class specifically for Pediatrics as well as an obstetrics class. For both of these classes, one has to have taken the first three levels of CST training to be accepted into these classes. It is done this way because the therapist really needs to be at a certain level of competency to work on children and infants.

The second issue I would like to address is the use of CST in a hospital setting. Yes, it would be absolutely wonderful if CST was used more in deliveries. Our research has shown that CST during delivery can help reduce labor pain, make the mom more 'comfortable', help the baby to position how she/he needs to be born, and CST can help progress stalled labor and speed up second stage labor. Why wouldn't we want to try CST in all births?
(side question: isn't it up to the mom who is in the room with her?)

Without CST being in the hospital, how about the next best thing: Receiving CST work throughout pregnancy. Getting CranioSacral Therapy sessions throughout the nine months of gestation can be just as effective (if not more so) in a successful delivery as being in the room for the delivery. If mom and baby can have all the right conditions throughout the nine months, then both will be prepared when the time comes for delivery. Mom and baby will know this has been coming and what they each need to do for a successful, easy birth.

Yes, complications still arise and it would be great for a therapist to be in the room to help them through those issues. But at least if mom and baby get nine months of great work, the chances of complication decrease.


C-sections
Sometimes they are necessary and can save the lives of both the mother and the baby. In these cases I applaud the work of the doctors who make educated decisions and work quickly to save lives. It is the doctors who promote c-sections as an easier alternative that I have issue with ... but that is really another topic ...

From a CranioSacral perspective a c-section baby can have severe trauma from the process for two possible reasons. One, the baby doesn't get born the way he/she 'wanted to' be born. I know this may challenge some of your thinking, but I feel that most babies know on some level what the birthing process should be, what it will feel like, and look forward to coming into this world. A c-section takes that away and can create an emotional trauma that stays with the person for the rest of his/her life.

Two, the c-section process creates an extreme change in the environmental pressure the baby is in. There are many stories of amniotic fluid squirting out up to a foot or more when the incision is made. Think about what that change in pressure does to a newborn's undeveloped skull. We talk about newborn's craniums being small islands of bone floating in a sea of membrane. When this type of pressure change occurs there is a sudden expansion of the cranium and then an almost immediate recoil response that contracts all of the membrane. Craniums of c-section newborns can feel very tight and immobile. Imagine what that is doing to his/her little nervous system.

So while I do think it would be great to have CranioSacral Therapy during labor, the next best thing is to have the work prior to delivery and shortly after delivery. It makes a significant change in the lives of the parents and the baby when they all start their new life together from a place of health and well-being.


Brian
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Post by AngEngland » Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:37 am

Lovely post Brian! Yes, advanced training is highly recommended and I was blessed with a chiro who had over 100 hours training in Craniosacral work which is one of the reasons I specifically chose him. :-)

To answer the question about "can't the mother choose who's in the room" the answer is yes, and no. Hospitals will sometimes impose arbitrary numbers to the amount of "visitors" a mother can have in the room during her delivery. So if a laboring mother wants her husband and her mother and the hospital says "You can only have TWO" that doesn't leave her any "open slots" to fill with a labor support professional.

As client demand increases for doulas and other professional labor support personal some hospitals are increasing that number to 3 or even 4, some doctors will waive that rule by special case-by-case situations or mothers are choosing to labor elsewhere to allow a greater freedom. Fascinating to hear about the research on CS work and labor specifically - that is my passion truly. Mothers and babies and all that entails. :-)

I'd love to see more of the research and studies if you have any of those documents/links available. Email to massagesforlife at yahoo if you don't mind?

Angela <><

P.S. I agree as well. C-sections are wonderful, life saving surgeries that can truly save lives. I hope my previous post didn't imply I think ALL C-sections are bad. But when you have some care providers who have C-section rates of about 4% (internationally the lowest rate amongst most concientious providers who incidentally, also lose the fewest number of mothers and babies) and other care providers like one of our local doctors who has a C-section rate of over 75% and collects a surgeon's bonus at the end of the year becuase of it, there is something wrong. :-)

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Post by sjidoulamt » Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:43 am

Angela and Brian, thanks so much for elaborating... and thanks Ego, for posting the topic in the first place.

I want to recommend CST to my sister-in-law. Her baby, born via c-section (medically necessary) that has been diagnosed with a host of digestive disorders. Thanks for providing info so I can help her seek out a qualified practitioner. This thread has also inspired me to seek out CST for my baby when he gets here.
I'd love to see more of the research and studies if you have any of those documents/links available.
Could you post in the research section of the board?

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Post by cstbrian » Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:03 am

AngEngland wrote:P.S. I agree as well. C-sections are wonderful, life saving surgeries that can truly save lives. I hope my previous post didn't imply I think ALL C-sections are bad.
I did not get that from your previous post. I was just trying to state my complete thoughts on the subject. I think most of us would agree that there are times when a c-section is absolutely necessary.

AngEngland wrote:I'd love to see more of the research and studies if you have any of those documents/links available.
Sorry to not get back sooner on this. I have been away (still am away) assisting a CSTI class. I haven't been able to find any of the research posted online. But, I will check when I get home what info I have and perhaps I could send copies to those interested.

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Post by EgoMagickian » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:10 pm

Interesting... according to the person I talked to today, the prereq for the Milne pediatrics classes is C1 & C2 (a total of 64 hours)... sounds like Upledger requires more?

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Post by Dragonflies » Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:33 am

AngEngland wrote:Primary C-section means first time C-sections. WHen many hospitals came under heavy criticism for having C-section rates that were far too high - 200 times the generous "recommended" level they stopped tracking TOTAL C-sections and started counting only PRIMARY or FIRST TIME C-sections.
Not to mention that many states don't report cesarean sections for multiples, breech and high-risk pregnancies (IVF pregnancies are considered "high-risk" in some parts :shock:)
AngEngland wrote:Even though a mother who delivers via C-section is three times more likely to die than a mother delivering vaginally and a baby born via C-section is DRASTICALLY more likely to end up needing time in the NICU and twice as likely to die as a vaginally birthed counter part. Those numbers come from studies that compare only low risk, healthy mothers with healthy babies.....takes out and accounts for any sick or unhealthy mothers. So yeah.....

And now it is up to four times more likely to die from a cesarean. :(

The Coalition for Improving Maternity Services (CIMS) has launched a website called The Birth Survey, which allows mothers to give feedback on their care provider and place of birth. A great resource for those of you who have clientele that are pregnant or have very young children. And very soon they will offer a searchable database of birth places and care providers across the United States that have been "reviewed" by actual women that have given birth in the last three years!

As for CST for kids - I've seen excellent results for babies and toddlers! I highly recommend the CST work, especially if labor was difficult for mom and baby or when development issues arise. Is there a directory of these practitioners that specialize in CST for pediatrics? That would be a wonderful resource for parents (and doulas!). :)
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Post by AngEngland » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:34 am

Dragonflies wrote:
And now it is up to four times more likely to die from a cesarean. :(

<snip>

The Coalition for Improving Maternity Services (CIMS) has launched a website called The Birth Survey, which allows mothers to give feedback on their care provider and place of birth. A great resource for those of you who have clientele that are pregnant or have very young children. And very soon they will offer a searchable database of birth places and care providers across the United States that have been "reviewed" by actual women that have given birth in the last three years!

<snip>

As for CST for kids - I've seen excellent results for babies and toddlers! I highly recommend the CST work, especially if labor was difficult for mom and baby or when development issues arise. Is there a directory of these practitioners that specialize in CST for pediatrics? That would be a wonderful resource for parents (and doulas!). :)
Dragonflies - Yes...in part because of the increasing rate of post-operative infections in hospitals. Acrtually - infections in hospitals PERIOD. I jsut read an article in..New York Times? Ledger? A national publicatin that was talking about for every 12 hours you stay in the hospital your risk of infection increases another 6% or something? That's crazy scary!

CIMS - AWESOME resource. If you know anyone who is expecting you owe it to them to pass it along. :-)

CST - I'm not sure about a specific directory like that but I would guess chiros and CST practitioners in your area might be able to get you a referral to someone.

Incidentally - I took a doula training in August and already have my first two clients lined up.

Angela <><

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Post by Dragonflies » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:48 am

AngEngland wrote:CST - I'm not sure about a specific directory like that but I would guess chiros and CST practitioners in your area might be able to get you a referral to someone.
Oh, I've got practitioners that I already refer to, I was asking in general if any of the CST practitioners know of such a resource.
AngEngland wrote:Incidentally - I took a doula training in August and already have my first two clients lined up.
That's awesome! I can still remember the first birth I ever attended (I was a few months shy of my ninth birthday)! It stays with you forever. 8)
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