Male MT's: "Stinkerheaded" women clients

[Intuitouch]

A post in another thread made me curious about what male therapists must deal with in regards to women harassing them. I believe this subject is under-discussed. I wonder if male MT's have the same issues and it's just a different gender or do women who are looking for "extra's" do something different than the men who are looking for "extra's".

What are the red flags that go off for our male MT's on the board? How do you handle these clients or potential clients?

[boofdorf]

*Raising hand in air*
Okay, I'm the one that coined stinkerheaded men and women (such harsh language, I know). Where I said it I was bemoaning sexism anywhere saying there are stinkerheaded men & women. In that regard I've had few problems of a sexual nature, just men and women that try to talk/gossip/gripe during a session, bounce checks, be stinky/sweaty/etc.
But to answer Intuitouch's question I felt very fortunate and proud of my MT school (Stillpoint @ Greenfield Community College, Greenfield, MA). Our Ethics course was very thorough (one reason why I scoff at 200 hr training programs and the like). We spent a good amount of time discussing this issue and even role playing (I volunteered to be the male MT being hit on by the female client, which was particularly funny since the woman that volunteered is a lesbian and really hammed up the seductress part). I have put that learning into practice a couple of times by being extremely calm, polite, courteous, AND firm in stating what my business is all about. One of those clients moved on, another is still a client.
Thanks for asking Intuitouch!
boofdorf

[jellybeanbutterfly]

Now, I'm not a man, but I wanted to add a thought. It may sound sexist, but it's really just a matter of our anatomy.

Why I think this is an under-discussed issue is simply that female MTs are occasionally sexually assulted by male clients. Male MTs aren't at risk for being raped by female clients.

Now, for the more sexist part.
When women are hit on by men, especially in an atmosphere where the woman is vulnerable, it's offensive, the man has the power in the situation, etc.
When men are hit on by women, it's more than likely seen as cute, flattering, innocent, etc.

It's pretty rare that a woman is going to say to a guy (in any situation) "your @$$ looks hot in those jeans...do you work out?"

Interesting topic. I'm looking forward to any stories of experience with this issue.

[palpable]

Now, I'm not a man, but I wanted to add a thought. It may sound sexist, but it's really just a matter of our anatomy.

Why I think this is an under-discussed issue is simply that female MTs are occasionally sexually assulted by male clients. Male MTs aren't at risk for being raped by female clients.
.

While I will agree that it is less likely that males are at risk, it is possible for this to happen to a male. Certian responses are physiological, whether intended or not.
Part of the problem is that:
a) how many men would report an occurence, and who would believe them. As it is, many females do not report these attacks.

b) often times, it is believed, even by the victim, that since they were able to "perform" that they must have enjoyed it or taken a role in the occurrence.

It's pretty rare that a woman is going to say to a guy (in any situation) "your @$$ looks hot in those jeans...do you work out?"

Yes, rare, but it does happen. (Perhaps my jeans are flattering

This is not intended to belittle, in any way, the nonsense that female MTs have to put up with from some males. I just wanted to point out that it can indeed go in both directions

[Melody]

When women are hit on by men, especially in an atmosphere where the woman is vulnerable, it's offensive, the man has the power in the situation, etc.
When men are hit on by women, it's more than likely seen as cute, flattering, innocent, etc.

When women flirt with their therapist, I don't see it as cute or innocent. One wrong word to the right person can ruin his career. It almost happened to a friend of mine. Men should take these advances just as seriously as women do.

[Texas-gal]

Male MTs aren't at risk for being raped by female clients.

Though rare, I too have to say, they can be at risk for such behaviour as well.

It's pretty rare that a woman is going to say to a guy (in any situation) "your @$$ looks hot in those jeans...do you work out?"

You'd be surprised at what women say. We have a tendency to think of women as all cutsie, but when a shark starts coming-on to a therpaist, wow, can it be a doozie.


jellybean, I so appreciate your input around here, and hope that my replies don't sound condescending, as you may have not met the same sort of women I have, but I figured I'd better post the "asides" in case someone out there gets bewitched by the idea that men don't have these issues as well.

I am getting a bit off the subject and sending it back to the males out there. Hoping you all will tell us more about what you come across and how you deal with it.

[Vision001]

I don't get anybody real aggressive but you certainly get the low percentage who will test the waters. Certainly there isn't the physical threat that a female therapist might endure but the implications of someone taking a male therapist response wrong are devastating. The level of professionalism must be critically watched even if you think you are just with a fun loving person. What might be said is definitely a bigger concern than what might be physically done to me. I absolutely won't work a residential outcall on a female in a house alone and it isn't because of any physical fear. It is what may be said and having the buffer of someone in another room lowers that concern some.

Women are far more subtle than men (I know that is a generalized sexist statement but I'm not trying to be P.C. while relating my experiences) I've had a few ask if breast massage is a something that is usually done because they "heard you can get it done some places" but always in that plausible deniability mode that lets them come off as just curious when I tell them NO in no uncertain terms. There will be occasional "I'm really pretty european in my attitudes and don't need all this covering" stuff but it's not a problem to say "well I'm not so it has to stay on". I have had some really pushy experiences with gay men who aren't anywhere near subtle even though they know my definite heterosexuality. Either case, men or women, people behaving less than properly are the exception and it is a different set of concerns for a male therapist.

I have only had one time where I felt physically nervous and that was recently when I got a last minute late night call to work on two guys who were just in town for the day. Just felt hinky so I just said no. I'm sure from reading posts that this kind of thing is far more prevalent with females but we do get the occasional crap thrown at us.

I generally like people too much to let it bother me. Life is too short to spend much of it upset.

Steve

[merlescuz]

In my limited experience, I have already worked with a couple of very flirty women. They were not aggressive in any way that was physically threatening, but there was a distinct concern about what might be said to someone else after. I was very clear in my intent, and extra cautious in my work. The last thing I need to worry about is having a rep before I'm even working!

I have to say that, while it seems uncommon, I could see a woman being physically threatening to a man in this circumstance. I've met women that were intimidating to me in their attitude and/or physicalness. Not that I would ever allow myself to be in a position of being in a closed office with them if I could avoid it, but if I was working somewhere that had a receptionist booking appointments, I might not have that control. Of course, refusing to work on them is an option.

This thread brings up another variation that I've often wondered about..women hitting on or being aggressive toward other women. Another topic for another day, perhaps?

[mush]

mr. mush agrees with vision: these women are subtle but the message is very clear.

one line they have used with mr. mush (knowing there is a mrs. mush, lmt):
"your wife must be very understanding about what you do, you know, massaging other women."

another:
"you must have alot of temptation (in your work)."

some questionable behavior from some women is the same 'slick' moves men use. there's the ever popular 'drape-tuggers'. women will tug the top of the drape to expose part of the areola, as men tug the drape at the waist to expose the pubic symphysis or more. there's also those with 'selective' memory, who have not listened to the instructions for getting onto the table and covering themselves, so when you return from washing, they're laying on top of the drape, supine or prone, nude. the other one is those who decide to undress before you leave the room.

the most frustrating, was a couples massage mr. mush and i did for a doctor and his wife at their beach condo. when we arrived for the appointment we had with them, she was wearing a sheer lace teddy and robe while he was dressed in a golf shirt and shorts. we avoided looking at her, set up as normal, and as we were heading to the bathroom to wash, the mrs. started to strip down right in front of mr. mush. (he happened to be standing closest to her at the time.)
i am not a jealous person, but i wanted to commit a felony.
needless to say, we don't take their appointments any longer.

[Intuitouch]

I appreciate those who shared their experiences and opinions.

I think women and men share similar traits when going after "extra's". Maybe, rather than it being about gender, it is about mindset. Either way, the best response from any of us put in the position of a client requesting "extra's" is to keep our communication clear and remain professional at all times.

[jellybeanbutterfly]

wow, mush, your story blew me away!

being a female mt who only works with female clients, i know i didn't have enough experience to comment on this topic. i stand corrected.

[mush]

also, mr. mush gets requested for breast massage at least twice a year.

uh, sorry~ outside the scope of practice

[StephenCMT]

This is my first post in this forum as I'm a new member and I felt compelled to post in here first due to seeing some generalizations being made that are a key problem Male CMT's may eventually face in this profession.

I've been an MT for almost 6 years now. In those 6 years, I've been hit on by female clients through methods both subtle and direct. Another MT and I were hit on by a swinger couple during a couples massage. By sheer coincidence that same MT and I, at the same time though in separate rooms, were both propositioned by the worst excuse for undercover cops posing as a naughty couple on the face of the planet (My area used to be pretty popular for illegal "Asian Massage Parlors" and had FINALLY just had them all cleaned out and shut down). Heck, my very first professional client was a stripper from Europe whom I almost had to wrestle to keep her chest covered with the sheet. I spent the next 10 minutes trying to assure her that I was only covering her up due to professionalism and legality and NOT because I "didn't like her body". Let me just say that trying to assure a European stripper that she is NOT unattractive as professionally as possible while trying to prevent her from yanking her sheet down off her as the first client of your professional career is the quintessential crash course in Massage Ethics. I also have a personal Male CMT Horror story that would take too long to post here. If you ever get a case of "This could never happen to me"-itus, then feel free to request me to post it at a later time.

It's very easy to generalize saying that, "Girls aren't as forward/threatening as guys" or "Girl's don't hit on guys with the same aggression or intent". It's also easy for the same people making these generalizations to say, "All guys are Dogs". Well, guess what? It's the 21st Century and with progression comes more hindsight and the hope for a better understanding of the present. The Male MT's concern with this situation is an aspect of a much larger realization that some can't come to terms with: Girls CAN and DO have the capacity to be "Dogs" just as much, if not MORE, than men do in today's day and age; some even placing importance on their ability to attract others much like the chauvinistic man defines his manliness based on how many women he's slept with. And, with today's cultural and legal bias towards men being the "aggressor" in general, don't think that women who do participate in this kind of behavior do so without the knowledge that the cards are slightly in their favor.

Does this mean that the majority of women do this? Absolutely not. Is this situation their fault? Absolutely not. Men have done their part throughout history to earn this stigma that we've had to deal with. Not to mention the fact that, when some hot female school teacher molests some 14 year old boy, many of us men (including myself, sadly...have to be honest and share the guilt!! ) jokingly minimalize the possible trauma and act like it's a personal triumph for the boy. But, this is a societal example of the formerly oppressed taking on the traits of the oppressor while falsely thinking they are incapable of such behavior since they were the victims of it. It happens not only with sexism but racism, greed, jealousy, fidelity, etc... Generalizations in a previous post intimating that things like a female client hitting on a male practitioner either doesn't happen or is LESS likely to happen on a whole does not only NOT help the situation, it compounds the problem. Enforced ignorance is the worst way to prepare for a situation and, if it wasn't for some of my male instructors taking me aside to explain certain biases and situations to me while I was in Massage School, then I wouldn't have made it past my first year.

My first post has become a wall of text so I'll end it soon. Please don't think I'm attacking anyone's post, though I am pretty passionate on this subject. I just believe that, as not only MT's but as human beings, it's easy to succumb to the temptation of localized thoughts: "If it hasn't happened to me, then it can't or probably won't happen to someone else". This couldn't be further from the truth. Keep your mind opened to all possibilities because the inherent truth of things may be the exact opposite of what you've been led to believe.

[yogamom]

So, really, I just popped into this discussion out of curiousity, just to see how things are for guy MT's. My theory is this... I think that maybe a risk from a femal client is that she might misinterpret professional concern as unprofessional interest and do that whole transferrence thing. I'm sure that could be just as bad as coming onto a male MT in a sexual way. If he were then to be ethical in his treatment of her, she might perceive that as a snub of some kind, and you know the saying about hell and women scorned. A woman saying her MT was interested in her could be just as bad as him actually being into her. Another discussion in a different forum from a couple of months ago dealt with a similar situation, and I had no idea how easily things can be misinterpreted. On that note, though, the male MT's who have treated me have only been the most fabulous and professional of men.

[Brian]

I have read all of these posts, and can agree with most of them. In my two years of having my shop open, I have never had problems with female clients. Of course, I'm not cute and sexy and muscular. I just do good work.

I have had a few men that during the session will undrape themselves. I undrape them to the waist to work their abs, and they push the sheet further. In each of these cases, I pulled the sheet back up and continued (the last thing I do as part of the massage is the abs). What this does do however, is ruin the energies. Each file folder from each of these people has a typed explanation of what happened, and I put a red sticky on the tab. These are people that will never set foot in the shop again.

On the other side of it, I have had a couple women come in and ask to be worked on without draping. In Florida, it is legal to do this as long as there is informed consent, and both client and therapist are comfortable with it. If I am comfortbale with this request, I have a form that the client must read and sign. It explains the laws and specifically tells them that the lack of draping does not change the scope of the massage... that there are areas that will not be worked. The client signs agreeing that they are requesting the lack of draping, and understand that they will only get a massage. I also have to sign the form indicating that I am comfortable with the situation. This goes into their file in case anything is said later. I have never had any female client come on to me whether they be draped or not.

Now, I did have a strange situation. I was working on a young girl ( 18 ) that had received a gift certificate from someone that won it at a local restaurant. In some cases when I feel the client needs an extra shoulder/arm stretch, I have a couple moves I do with the client sitting up. In this case, and as always, I pulled the girl's arms out from under the sheet and placed one in the center of her chest and told her to hold the drape with it. I took the other hand and helped her sit up. As I started working on the first shoulder, she let the drape fall. I basically ignored it and continued to work. (Just as in the ocassional mistake where something accidentally comes uncovered, it is better to deal with it in a low key manner than to panic.) When I helped her lay back down, she left the drape at her waist, and I pulled it up to cover her. I don't belive she was coming on to me. I just think that she may have just been comfortable.

At any rate, a situation like this can ruin a career whether the person is coming on to you or not. All it takes is one complaint of sexual misconduct to force you to change careers as I'm sure the legal authorities would believe the client over the therapist, and unless you have video of the session (and who would be stupid enough to do that) there is only your word against theirs. Any client spurned form their sexual advances could make a complaint as revenge.

In this situation, to safeguard myself, I wrote a page on what happened. I described that she let the drape drop, what I did, how I handled it. I speculated that she might have just felt comfortable, or that she felt it was necessary for whatever reason. I put this page in her file. If anything ever comes of it, I have something written immediately after the session to remind myself of what happened and as possible protection in case a complaint is made. (I know somone like this may go tell this story to her friend and someone say that this shouldn't have happened and she should lodge a complaint. It's silly, but it happens.)

I guess the basic idea that I try to follow is to protect myself as much as possible. Written agreements in the files, descriptions and concerns about situations show that there is truly a concern on the part of the therapist to do things above baord and to let the client know that this is truly a legitimate operation.

[maestra]

Now, I did have a strange situation. I was working on a young girl ( 18 ) that had received a gift certificate from someone that won it at a local restaurant. In some cases when I feel the client needs an extra shoulder/arm stretch, I have a couple moves I do with the client sitting up. In this case, and as always, I pulled the girl's arms out from under the sheet and placed one in the center of her chest and told her to hold the drape with it. I took the other hand and helped her sit up. As I started working on the first shoulder, she let the drape fall. I basically ignored it and continued to work. (Just as in the ocassional mistake where something accidentally comes uncovered, it is better to deal with it in a low key manner than to panic.) When I helped her lay back down, she left the drape at her waist, and I pulled it up to cover her. I don't belive she was coming on to me. I just think that she may have just been comfortable.

At any rate, a situation like this can ruin a career whether the person is coming on to you or not. All it takes is one complaint of sexual misconduct to force you to change careers as I'm sure the legal authorities would believe the client over the therapist, and unless you have video of the session (and who would be stupid enough to do that) there is only your word against theirs. Any client spurned form their sexual advances could make a complaint as revenge.

In this situation, to safeguard myself, I wrote a page on what happened. I described that she let the drape drop, what I did, how I handled it. I speculated that she might have just felt comfortable, or that she felt it was necessary for whatever reason. I put this page in her file. If anything ever comes of it, I have something written immediately after the session to remind myself of what happened and as possible protection in case a complaint is made. (I know somone like this may go tell this story to her friend and someone say that this shouldn't have happened and she should lodge a complaint. It's silly, but it happens.)

I guess the basic idea that I try to follow is to protect myself as much as possible. Written agreements in the files, descriptions and concerns about situations show that there is truly a concern on the part of the therapist to do things above baord and to let the client know that this is truly a legitimate operation.

Brian,
I believe you're doing the right thing by writing down what happened during the session and including it in the client's file. Therefore if you are ever taken to court over the matter, having documented it immediately after the session (in as much detail as possible) may just make a huge difference in the way any court proceedings turn out. Or at the very least, it may help refresh your memory of what happened during that session.

[melb]

Any client spurned form their sexual advances could make a complaint as revenge.
In this situation, to safeguard myself, I wrote a page on what happened. I described that she let the drape drop, what I did, how I handled it. I speculated that she might have just felt comfortable, or that she felt it was necessary for whatever reason. I put this page in her file. If anything ever comes of it, I have something written immediately after the session to remind myself of what happened and as possible protection in case a complaint is made.

If it really is a concern, write it down immediately afterwards and post it to yourself, and put the postmarked unopened envelope in the file, if need be put a copy in the folder too so you can remember what is in the envelope. Otherwise a piece of paper with your version of the events is just a piece of paper with your version of the events written whenever it suited you, dates mean nothing, postalmarks do.

[fudja / aka Greatlakes]

Having the letter notorized would be even better.

Christine

[melb]

StephenCMT, agree with you totally people are capable of anything, male female, alien life form, whatever. Inappropriate behaviour is not limited to men, BUT the incidence of inappropriate behaviour by men is a much much higher percentage of total inappropriate behaviour than all the other genders combined (and that is inappropriate behaviour directed and any gender MT), that is not a generalization, it's a fact that is supported by empirical evidence on this message board and out in the real world - there will be 99 male drape tugger/grinder/heavy breather/moaning/exposing on the table posts, to one female moaning/grinding/exposing/drape tugger post. That does not make the female incident any less of a concern than the male ones, if anything it makes it more of a concern because of the disbelief by some people it was what it was.
I've had a couple of female clients display inappropriate behaviour towards me, but I've had well over 200 males make inappropriate requests/behaviour etc. (most of that was in the initial phone call to book an appointment, I've never had a single female phone up and ask for more than a massage, doesn't mean it's impossible just means I've not encountered it) With the females, I wasn't 100% sure what was going on, but both were regulars that kept coming back and it was finally so overt I had to recognise it was what it was. I do think that is the big difference with most female inappropriate behaviour - they will feel comfortable and then offer themsleves, rather than immediately walking in going "can we get this massaged?" Obviously there are exceptions to that which makes it even harder for those incidents to be believed.
Is it any less of a concern because it happens so much less than inappropiate male clinets? No. Is it even more of a concern because it happens so rarely it is more of a shock to the MT? No not really, it does happen, get over it, diffuse the situation as quickly as possible however you do it. Is it even more of a concern because it happens so rarely no-one believes the MT? Yes, and threads like this are good to raise awareness, just as threads about inappropriate males are good to raise awareness, it's just that there will always be a lot more inappropriate males to post about, basically due to massage/touch equating to adult industry in a lot of male minds, while massage/touch equates to spa/pampering in a lot of female minds", and for most females that do think massage/touch equates to adult industry, it's usually in a disapproving attitude rather than a looking for it attitude.

[shaylmbt]

I received my license just a few days ago, and am VERY excited to get started in this field.
That said, my biggest fear is not getting hit on by a female client. It's being hit on by a female client, responding in a completely above-board and professional way, and then being accused of inappropriate behavior... As one of the previous posts noted, Hell hath no fury etc. etc.
So what will I do? Take the advice of the member who suggested posting a letter to oneself after the incident to keep in the client's file. I'll also make it a point to keep a photo or two of my wife and I in my treatment space. If working in a spa setting, I plan to clearly discuss with my boss that if I feel uncomfortable, I will immediately stop the session and leave the treatment space.
I know many men have done terrible things, but I also know that many men who have done nothing have been ruined by false accusations.
Hopefully I'm just paranoid.
There were many other great suggestions in this thread; many thanks from this newbie!

[sillypup]

one of the ways to deal with gender issues is to not make an issue out of it. when you work, think anatomy, muscles, healing, how to make the body more balance. focus on the work not the perception of male or female. just do what your paid to do. another thing is to be a great therapist and build credibility that your professional through testimonials from those you work on. become famous. be the go to guy in the area.
Unfortunately, it's tough too if your boss don't give a rat's ass and give refunds to all that complain and not fight for you. you need support of your employers and those around you and frequent clients for these credibility. no one would believe the crazy lady who cause trouble do to your professional reputation. they will think the client have issues and like to lie. if your boss don't support your work and is just in it for the money, forget it, you won't get much positive environment or him/her standing up for you when a client complain. that happen to me and that was one of the reason i quit. he believed the client over me and scolded me to take more sessions to work on clients and don't do deep tissue if client ask until a few sessions. he basically want me to do pampering massage to get more sessions which is against my ethics professional view. I will do what i can to help clients as quickly as i can. also the client have no bases to complain, it was all lies just to get free massage. I didn't do anything wrong. I knew she would complain the moment I met her even before the massage. and i was right. it's just how she carries herself and the fact that she ask to pay by check before the session. Not only that, they gave her refund without any questions to legit complaint. the owner has a policy that if you aren't satisfied you get your money back. and the nerve of him to tell me i'll fail in life in my own business and tells me to come back to work for him when i fail. guess what? after I left, his business went downhill because he lost the top therapist in the city and all the frequent clients I have and not to mention bad reputation. all the other therapist don't even get enough returns to get noticed as being a good therapist. i'm the only one because I actually do deep tissue and balance clients not just a pampering massage. so the point of all this is, having support from boss and how they run the place helps prevents gender issues and unattract problem clients. the way my old boss run his business, he's asking for a lawsuit since they always ask for gender preference and make gender an issue. owners don't realized that if you don't mention it, it will not come up to client's awareness. but once you make it aware to them, it will come up to every place they book appointment because they have been red flag to something being wrong with male therapist.

[tiger snacks]

This male sexism issue is the same with nursing. "Nursing is for women, not men." I respond, "Why is taking care of other people something only women can do?"

Same as massage therapy. You don't get this kind of BS with Physical Therapy..


"No! I demand a female to teach me how to walk again! He might....RAPE me!"